This’ll totally make people forget I’m in an extremist cult.
(Tom Cruise)
picture: imdb.com. lol caption:
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Touche. Well played.
Scientology isn’t any more extreme than Catholicism.
Or Baptism. And not just Westboro Baptism
But it’s much, much funnier.
And on a slightly more serious note – one of the distinguishing characteristics of ‘cults’ as opposed to other religions is the attempt to have converts sever relations with non-believers.
_
Y’know, the way Scienlology does.
You didn’t just say, “Scienlology”.
Win for you, Czernobog. Win for you.
LOL. I’ve never heard of Scienlology
yes because all the other religions are just perfect.
Scientology isn’t a religion, it’s a business.
Actually, it is a religion. Get your facts straight.
It actually is a business, though. Scientology does not have non-profit, tax-exempt status in all countries partially for that reason – most of their religious practices are “pay-to-play.” I think that’s what ChiChi might have been referencing.
Nice to hear the daily dose of religious bigotry. Keep your internal ugliness to yourself, okay?
You can’t be bigoted against a religion; religions are ideas, not people. Did you hear anyone in this thread you’re responding to speaking ill of Scientology MEMBERS? No, they’re taking Scientology itself to task. And so they should! The church’s teachings are harmful; it’s a worthless, predatory scam. Pretty much all critics of scientology acknowledge that Scientologists themselves are, for the most part, good people who mean well who’ve been caught up in one of the most immoral and destructive cult ideologies ever foisted upon human beings. Saying so isn’t bigotry – it’s humanitarianism.
I wish I could remember the interview I read when Valkyrie first started filming. One German official compared Tom’s role in this movie to Osama Bin Laden playing Jesus in the Passion of the Christ. I lol’d heartily.
Which is finnier: Scientology or Mormonism?
Ce-entology, the study of space whales, is finnier.
That sounds interesting… I should check it out. You know, just for the halibut.
I once had a girlfriend who was into that. Then I lobster. Never could flounder, either.
Don’t give up; it might have just been a fluke. Scale back your efforts but don’t let her off the hook just yet or you might have a gillt complex somewhere down the road.
wow, are all of you people doing that on porpoise?
Oh, don’t start blubbering.
^funnier
Too late.
Keiko the whale, who starred in “Free Willy”, claimed both were equally finny.
I’ve had several people tell me I need to see Valkyrie … but they couldn’t find
a sane actor to play von Claussenberg?
Or how about someone who can actually do an accent?
“Unlike some *other* Robin Hoods, I can speak with an English accent”
From this day forward, all the toilets in the land shall be known as…. Johns!
What’s the point of doing an accent if, in this movie, english=german. If he was doing an accent it’ll imply the characters walk about forcing themselves to talk english.
It’s the same on bad quality holocaust films where the germans speak english in a german actors and you think “if the jews are seaking english then english=yiddish and that means concentration camp commanders were awefully considerate to learn to language of their victims”
Well…I think so, anyways >.>;;
hahahaha i really enjoy reading your posts hahaha
I read a lovely interview where he was saying something about the german officers’ oath of loyalty, how they were ‘basically swearing away their right to think for themselves’.
The next paragraph said something like ‘And here it might be interesting to ask about mr. Cruise’s affiliation with Scientology, but there were no personal questions allowed for this interview.’
I lolled
Oh, would you lay off the Scientolog nonsense already. They didn’t go out of seveal bloody crusades, they never started a jihad, so far they’re as harmless as budhism and shintoism. Brainwashing to a faith that doesn’t preach for the destruction of non-believers (and I’m not aware of anything of this sort in scientology, but I’d love to hear about it if it does exist, from the horse’s mouth) is not as bad as what other religions have done in their time.
So wait, if a non believer gets into their way they’re allowed to literally destroy them, but they’re completely harmless?
Where, in actual Scientology preaching is that bit?
That’s Hubbard’s “Fair Game” doctrine, part of the public record, submitted into evidence in defense of Paulette Cooper, the first notable journalist to take on the ridiculous, dangerous cult that is Scientology.
Dude. Have you actually studied any Scientology? Or, are you another lump on the religious hate sh*t wagon?
Also, do you have anything to say that refutes my claim, or are you just going to be insulting because you can’t? I’ve noticed that’s the preferred tactic of scientologists and their supporters; harry, harass, and hector, never discuss.
Yeah. Leave Scientology alone. If they want to take children away from their scientologist parents and make them live in nurseries and grassless play-yards with basically no attention and absolutely no toys until they’re between 8 and 10 years old because they believe all children are little adults, that’s their business.
That’s the parents’ problem, not our business
Yes, and likewise, if parents wish to whip their kids with rusty chains and starve them, we should also refrain from getting involved. Obviously parents always know what’s best.
Visit http://www.exscientologykids.com and http://www.xenu.net for testimony from people who have left Scientology or been attacked by their Office of Special Affairs. It’s a cult, there’s nothing religious or spiritual about them.
(Also, just because someone is critical of Scientology doesn’t automatically mean they give all religions a free pass. It just means that at this moment, the discussion is about Scientology.)
Nope – actual sceintology sources only, nothing against it. Lord knows anyone can write anything on the internet and propaganda is all too easy to make.
If you’re only willing to read Scientology sites then yes, Scientology is great. By all means abandon your family and give them your credit card details.
Better this than get information from people with an obvious agenda against scientology.
So – you’re willing to consider the writings of people with an obvious agenda [i]for[/i] Scientology as valid, but not [i]against[/i]?
At least all christians and muslims do is threaten nonexistent hellfire when someone criticizes them. Post up a video about scientology, write a book or an article, share your opinion vocally, and you can forget about honest and open discussion; you’re “fair game” and they send in the lawyers. Yeah, totally harmless, there.
Better lawyers than crusader armies or abducted passenger airplanes into skyscrapers in the middle of NY…
How about none of the above?
Wishful thinking, we’re all humans, no matter what our creed is.
That doesn’t mean we have to keep giving religion a free pass from criticism, especially when unscrupulous people use it as an excuse for heinous actions.
http://www.xenu.net
‘nuf said. if you’re interested in scientology.
also, scientology has a ‘Fair game’ policy, which states that members may harm, decieve, blackmail and so on, everyone who is deemed “suppresive” or a danger to the church’s activities.
Yeah. xenu.net. They loath Scientology. They’re a religious hate group++. Great source of info there.
The word you were looking for was “loathe.” Also, what’s wrong with hating a religion? I hate racism, creationism, mormonism, and imperialism. These are IDEAS, though, and failed ideas at that. It’s perfectly fine to loathe, hate, detest, ridicule, dismiss, and abhor an IDEA, so long as you don’t transfer those feelings to the PEOPLE who hold it. Kind of like what the christians always say, “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Except this actually has some intellectual validity to it.
No, I’d say you don’t have much intellectual validity to that. But it doesn’t surprise me at all.
And no, religions are not just “ideas,” but honestly I don’t expect that kind of comprehension from someone with such 2-D thought. Ironically, it’s usually the people who preach against intolerance who hate the hardest.
Besides, even if they are a “hate group,” they’ve got a valid argument backed by evidence. Saying “OH BOO HOO WE ARE SO PERSECUTED THEY DON’T LIKE US” doesn’t invalidate their evidence or their argument, even if you might not like the tone they use to convey it. Grown people can address ideas and arguments without whining somebody not liking them.
LOL, we have a butt hurt Scientologist in the room! YAY!
Poor sick twisted Tom.
I love Stauffi! <3
Regardless of religion or any other factor Tom cruise just generally isnt a good actor in my opinion. the only thing i have noticed with tom *coming out* about his religion is evrything he does seems to be more stuck up than it was before. He always seemed to be a bit up his own backside but more so recently. Thats just my opinion. i dont know the guy he might be really nice privatly
Hubbard was a sci fi novelist!
Religion my ass
hahahaha and ha!
Stauffenberg was a typical aristocratic officer. A nationalist with a strong sense of loyalty. He wasn’t a Nazi, didn’t support their genocidal policies and had the courage to act on his convictions. No, that’s not based on the movie, not seen it. It’s based on being a historian.
And Mey, perhaps as an Israeli you should be thinking more about opposing your own government’s crimes than criticising people who had the courage to stand up to theirs.
Erm, you might want to try a little reading.
The whole point was to remove the Nazis from power so they could negotiate peace with the Allies. They weren’t stupid, they knew just killing Hitler then having one of his minions take over wouldn’t have been acceptable to the Allies.
If he “didn’t support their genocidal policies and had the courage to act on his convictions” why didnt he denounce and stand up against the governments plan to arrest, rob, and torture and murder millions of Jews. Why didnt he denounce and stand up against the government when it arrested hundreds of thousands of his fellow Germans because they held different political beliefs (Communists, Capitalists, and Democrats) or stood against the Nazi party’s racist and religious bigotry (Freemasons). What about when Germany invaded Czechezlovakia and Poland (among many other eastern european countries)and murdered people in the streets? Or invaded Belgium (a neutral country) and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of its citizens? Or invaded France? Bombed British cities? Or attacked Russia and murdered millions of its citizens and soldiers?
It seems he only gained his “courage to act on his convictions” when he saw that his country was going to lose the war and he would probably be held accountable for his and his fellow officers actions.
To compare Israel and Nazi Germany is pathetic. Although some of Israel’s citizens commited crimes, those who they had proof against now sit in Israeli prisons. Its government at times has made poor decisions and has changed its policies and apologized. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel did not choose to fight. The wars were forced upon Israel by its neighbors. Israel has also allowed its neighbors to live in peace as long as they let Israel live in peace. Sadly some have continued to choose not to.
If the RAF had the same technology the Israeli air force has then maybe the comparison with Dresden would have some validity.
From what you’re claiming, it seems you’re saying the IDF gave Hamas enough time to clear out of the area, leaving only civilians (who were known to be there), and then proceeded to bomb the crap out of the area anyway. You REALLY want to claim that?
Comprehension fail.
I’m not comparing Israel with Nazi Germany, I’m comparing one man, who for the record was never an NSDAP member, with people who tolerate all manner of crimes in their country’s name.
Sure, they may have changed policies from time to time, but they’re still into illegal collective punishments and military occupation. Maybe if Israel had a few more people like Stauffenberg who’d be prepared to stand up against a militaristic, racist state we’d have a chance of seeing peace in the Middle East.
Because people who stood up the to government f’in DIED. And dead, they were unable to do anything for anyone after that point. So instead, many endeavoured to make their miserable lives WORTH something, instead of simply sayin ‘no, I think Ill take the bullet to the head thank you’.
People sometimes forget that the autrocities towards the minorities- it wasnt just the jews- in germany didnt happen overnight, but were a progressive thing. Not following orders, being a rebel, that got you shot from day one.
This.
I guess you do have a comprehsension fail, you also have an intelligence fail.
Stauffenberg remained in the military while his country executed millions of Jews, Germans, and other nationals (men, women, and children). Stuffenberg never spoke out, he never did any action to help them. He blissfully supported his government (even if he wasnt a Nazi). He could have left the military, left the country, joined foreign militaries, passed information on, helped people escape, or joined rallies against the government (as some Germans did). Staufenberg didnt stand against his “militaristic, racist state” he supported it. Only when he and many others saw the collapse of their military effort did they decide to assassinate Hitler. They didnt move to liberate the death camps, stop the war on the eastern front, or bring back civil rights. Stauffenberg’s plan was to stop the Allies on the western front so that Germany could continue its fight in the east. His plan had nothing about the death camps and demanded that Germany keep most of its lands it had occupied.
Israel has abandoned its collective punishments and military occupation, to the limits that it can. I guess you dont seem to know what has been happening in the Middle East or about Israel. Israel has many Muslim, Christian, and Sikh citizens of many different ethnic backgrounds. They are part of the government and military. ((An interesting thing about the Sikhs is when Israel and the Arab countries were squaring up for the first war the Sikhs had the opportunity to talk with both sides and see what they would offer them. The Israelis offered them to be citizens and religious freedom. The Arabs offered them to convert to Islam or die. Needless to say they joined Israel.)) There are many Muslim companies and shops in Israel that do very well. They are also often the fist target of the Hamas and other terrorist attacks (great message they send there). Israel has many times stopped doing anything against or with their neighbors but it has never stopped the bombings or constant mortar and rocket attacks. If there is to be peace there it is up to Israel’s neighbors to stand up and stop violence. ((Another interesting note: A palestinian man who snuck into Israel to kill its citizens only had the chance to kill a 6 year old girl (slit her throat) and her 4 year old brother (bashed his head in) before being arrested. He was arrested by the Israeli police and sent to jail for life (Israel has no capital punishment). As part of the last negotiations between Israel and Hamas he was released and heralded as a “hero”. An Israeli man attacked numerous Muslim people praying in a cave/church. He was arrested by Israeli police and is still living out his life sentence in a Israeli jail…))
Oh goody, someone without the slightest clue trying to lecture me. I love it when this happens.
Collective punishments have been abandoned? Garbage, the whole Gaza offensive was one big collective punishment. Even after the conflict ended they closed borders to humanitarian aid convoys in retribution for rocket attacks. That’s clearly collective punishments, and illegal under the Geneva Convention.
Abandoned military occupation? Oh please, if you’re going to lie at least tell realistic lies. They still occupy the West Bank and continue to illegally expand settlements there. I guess illegally occupying their land and moving extremist Zionists onto their land counts as doing nothing to their neighbours, assuming of course that you’re a clueless moron.
Yep, there are plenty of Muslims in Israel. No, they’re not permitted in the military, with a few exceptions such as some Bedouin. As for being in the government, there are currently 10 Arab Knesset members, out of 120 total. Not very impressive representation considering Arabs make up about 1 in 4 of the Israeli population.
As for Sikhs in Israel… erm, yeah….sure there are loads of Sikhs in Israel. And I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.
This.
If anyone here doesn’t know what they’re talking about, buddy, it’s you.
1. Even after the conflict ended they closed borders to humanitarian aid convoys in retribution for rocket attacks. That’s clearly collective punishments, and illegal under the Geneva Convention.
Lie – every day there was a cease-fire from the israeli forces to allow humanitarian aid into the strip. After the operation ended an Israeli medical clinic was set up on the gaza strip boarder to allow Palestinian civilians the proper medical care their precious Hammas didn’t give their own people’s health services the funds for.
2. hey still occupy the West Bank and continue to illegally expand settlements there. I guess illegally occupying their land and moving extremist Zionists onto their land counts as doing nothing to their neighbours, assuming of course that you’re a clueless moron.
Lie – The illeagal settlements are constantly being torn down by the IDF, I was in the military police for my service and I’ve been there, evacuated 23 settlements and got the scars to prove it becuase it was hard fighting and against your own people. What was the gaza pullout if not getting illeagal AND leagal settlements out of Palestinian territory – you see the bits of reality that only suit you and call the rest lies.
3. Yep, there are plenty of Muslims in Israel. No, they’re not permitted in the military, with a few exceptions such as some Bedouin.
Lie – there are arab soldiers in the leagal core of the army, in the boarder police and in the best combat units – they’re in the navy, in the airforce, everywhere. Bedouins as scouts are a thing of the past and a cliche.
4. As for being in the government, there are currently 10 Arab Knesset members, out of 120 total. Not very impressive representation considering Arabs make up about 1 in 4 of the Israeli population.
You’re forgetting the fact that besides Hadash, the communist-arab party, the other two arabian parties actually preach and push forward anti-Israeli indeas, and still they’re allowed in the Knesset. Blind to one side of reality, twisting the facts you do get right.
And as for Sikhs, I think what you mean are Druze, distinguished members of the Israli communy from health service, to the army, to the leagal system; everywhere.
we should put the whole israel / palestine thing aside. lots of blood has bin spilled and it is not going to stop in the close future. this discussion was doomed, before it began.
to the july 20th plot: it was not the first time that hight ranking members of the wehrmacht tried to kill hitler and his cronies. the first unsuccessful attemt has been made in spring 1938 at the zenith of the “sudetenkrise” – it failed simply because of hitlers “peacefull” success and the boneless neville chamberlain who visited hitler in munich – you can not disempower a man who “just won a war without firing a single shot” – sad but true. hitler, who smelled the rat, replaced the head of the wehrmacht with loyal generals, to prevent on going disloyality.
several attempts were made to kill or disempower hitler.
the highlights were:
summer 1939: gerhard graf von schwerin tried to convince the british government to ally themselves with russia.
june 1942: adam von trott zu solz delivered a massage to foreign minister eden in london. he asked for support to get rid of hitler. eden denied the bidding of traitors.
summer 1942: the group around stauffenberg was formed. at this point, the war could have been won (by their judgement). some conspirators were witnesses of war crimes (mostly by accident) done by the ss and wehrmacht – like axel von der bussche who wanted to kill hitler in a suicide attack. others just wanted to stop the madness of hitler, the war and the killing of jews.
march 21st 1943: rudolph-christoph freiherr von gersdorff tried to kill hitler by suicide bombing during an exhibition. hitler left too soon.
ferbruary 1944: ewald-heinrich von kleist, like von gersdorff, wanted to kill hitler in a suicide attack.
july 7th 1944: cavalry captain von breitenbuch wanted to kill hitler with a pistol during a conference. quite unusually he was not allowed to enter the room.
those conspirators may did not have a clean slate but at least they tried to do something. leaving the country or joining the allies was out of question for them because of their aristocratic background. leaving the wehrmacht whould have been counterproductive – why loose any chance to get close to hitler?
to the movie: just another superficial hollywood blockbuster. just with a historical background. tom cruise gives us his standard mission impossible face and flops again. the documentary movie “die stunde der offiziere” from 2004 is far better researched and gives a deeper insight.
1) You deny the IDF closed the borders to humanitarian aid in retribution for Hamas cross border attacks? Google it, it’s true. Sorry if you don’t like it.
2) Nope, wrong. You see, the settlements that are ‘legal’ under Israeli law are illegal under international law. The Geneva Convention bans moving your population into occupied territory. I take it you didn’t read the recent reports in Haaretz and the JP, very interesting leaks giving evidence of government complicity in settlements illegal under even Israeli law.
3) Fair point, I’ll concede I was wrong on that one. Brain fart, I was thinking of not being eligible for national service and all the benefits that go with completing it.
4) Why shouldn’t they? Why should people who are second class citizens in their own country not speak out against it? Maybe if they were treated as equals they’d be less opposed to it. For instance, shouldn’t 1/4 of the population have more than 1/12th of the representation? Doesn’t that just stink of discrimination?
No, I meant Sikhs. It was a response to the idiot who claimed Israel had a large Sikh population. But, yes, I assume HE meant Druze.
ZOMG! Don’t bring history and facts into this, it never goes down well!!
But you notice, that while they semed to wish to kill Hitler and his cronies, they did nothing to change how the war and government was run. These were numerous men of great power and influence. They could have easily united and thrown a successful coup (though at the loss of the war effort). They could have also worked to protect those who were being mercilessly slaughtered.
A British aviator by the name of Charles Coward did as much against the German government then all of those German conspirators. Coward was shot down and captured. As a prisoner of war he escaped numerous times, sabotaging numerous railways and factories, communicating locations of hidden factories to the Allies, and recieved the Iron Cross while disguised as a German soldier. He was eventually transfered to Auchwitz where he helped over 600 people escape the death camps. One man, as a prisoner of war! The problem with the German conspirators is they cared not about changing what Germany was doing, just who was leading and getting the credit.
But you won’t hear about any of these men in a hollywood film and until then people will keep thinking only ‘the guy Tom Cruise played’ tried to stop Hitler and think of him as a big hero. Just like ‘Normandy’ to people is Utah, no Juno, no Sword, nothing; just Saving Ryan’s Privates.
my intention was to show, that the world does not made of black and white … bit many forms of gray…
Good luck trying to get people to figure that out.
“A famous historain”?
What in god’s name is a “historain”?
Do they teach basic spelling in “historain” class?
1) At times the borders were closed. It happens during wars, but they were also opened numerous times to allow humanitarian aid. You can look on Youtube (and Google) and see videos of humanitarian aid going into Gaza (and see how much was stopped by militants, never to be seen by civilians).
2) Many of the settlements exsted before Israel/Palestine (the lands were occupied by Jews and Arabs for many centuries before the current countries). Many Israeli citizens wished to move back to where their ancestors were from and many did it against the governments ordrs (and at times blatantly ignored). Many have been recently removed, by force, by the Israeli government. Yet though they were an excuse for the shelling and mortar attacks, the Arabs never stopped launching them. Even after Israel agreed to the last cease-fire agreement the rockets and mortars were, and still are, being launched into Israel.
4) Arabs count for 20% of the population of Israel as per the last census. They live spread out and some might vote for Jewish candidates or for candidates who are competing, which allowsa Jewish candidate who get most (or all) of the Jewish vote to win. They get to vote, they also get the right to religious freedom and civil courts based upon their religion. Lets compare that to the Jewish, Christian, and Druze citizens of Gaza. How many members of the Gaza government are Jewish? Christian? Druze? Women (I think there is 1 or 2)? Who is discriminatory?
I love how you attempt to throw insults and then make yourself look stupid. My statement was “Israel has many Muslim, Christian, and Sikh citizens” not a “large Sikh population” (notice how they are combined?). And true, it is Druze…which makes them siding with the Israelis even WORSE. The Druze are Arab Muslims! When people who share the same ethnic and religious beliefs (though of a different sect) threaten your life due to a difference in how you interpret Muhhamad’s teachings there is a problem…
1) The borders were closed long before the current conflict and remain closed now that conflict is over. You see about that aid ship the Israel navy siezed a couple of days ago? Israel wants to make sure the Palestinians only get aid if they choose to give it to them.
2) Oh, so it’s all Ok because people wanted to be where their ancestors came from. Ok, I’m tall, blue eyed, fair haired and most of my family come from the east side of Britain. Based on that, it’s clear I have a significant amount of Scandinavian ancestry, does that mean I’m entitled to go over to Denmark and boot some Danish guy off his land and take it for myself? Or is it just Israelis who are allowed to do that to Palestinians, doesn’t it apply in other cases?
4) No-one’s denying Hamas are a bunch of evil bastards who the world would be better off without. That doesn’t justify Israel’s discrimination. And yeah, it’s bound to be Arabs voting for Jewish candidates, that’s far more likely than it being discrimination ensuring the Arabs can’t be a significant political power in Israel. After all, why would a self-described Jewish state have a problem with having a major political block being Arabs?
How sweet, you make an inane statement claiming there’s a load of Sikhs in Israel and try to get out of it by claiming I’m the one who made myself look stupid. I’m not the idiot who can’t tell the difference between SIkjs and Druze.
As for them being Muslims, they may consider themselves Muslims, but most of the billion plus Muslims in the world don’t share that view. It’s similar to the Nation of Islam situation, they think they’re Muslims, but Muslims don’t think they are.
The pile of fail grows with every comment you leave. Just give it up; your sources are false, your history has more holes than Swiss cheese and you can’t articulate yourself without ending with your foot in your mouth. Facts ca’t be faught, now deal with it.
Oh, my sources are fake? See the link in my name, is the UN lying?
How about Associated Press?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD96601GG0
Maybe Haaretz lies about it too?
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/1059457.html
You’re right, you can’t fight facts. Shame the Israeli propaganda machine tries to.
Bah, looks like it swallowed my post.
See the link. I guess they’re lying huh?
I guess Haaretz are lying too? I guess they’re lying when they qote Israeli government officials as saying they close borders in response to to attacks?
Yay, original post showed up eventually. Ignore the lower 2.
Erm, have you been smoking something you shouldn’t?
The whole point of the 20th July plot was to change the government and end the war. Your claim they could have easily staged a successful coup is utterly inane, the plot to assassinate Hitler was the first move in that coup. It failed, so clearly the coup wasn’t as easy as you seem to think. Killing Hitler had to be the first step in the coup as all soldiers had sworn an oath of personal loyalty to him. While he lived a coup would have been pretty much impossible. Why do you think Stauffenberg was willing to risk his life to kill Hitler? Had he succeeded the coup may well have been successful.
I’m familiar with Coward, by the way, he was a soldier, not an airman. If I recall correctly he was part of the British Expeditionary Force and was captured during the retreat to Dunkirk. I certainly won’t belittle his achievements, he was a truly great man and deserves the recognition Yad Vashem gives him. However, he saved a few hundred lives. Had Stauffenberg and his co-conspirators succeeded they could have saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives. The SS were slaughtering Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau up until its liberation in January 1945. Had the 20th of July plot succeeded that would have been 6 months less of genocide. Then there’s all the people, civilian and soldier alike, who died in the months following the plot leading to the end of the war. If the plot had succeeded they may all have lived. All those deaths happened not because Stuaffenberg and co didn’t give a crap, they happened because they failed in their coup, and they died because of it.
The IAF has better technology and they still didn’t turn Gaza into Dresden.
Also, take a reading lesson – the IDF called civilian residents in the houses and beause Hammas was also using these house, they knew too. This I will claim happily – Hammas murder civilians on both sides of the war. They’re a political party, remmember, they’re supposed to look after their civilians.
It seems the strength you have in your arguements are your attempts at insulting.
According to the plans uncovered by the Soviets (led by one of the German conspirators) there was no plans to completely end the war, nor shut down the death camps, nor hand over possible “war criminals”, nor return of much of the lands taken. The plans gave Germany control of much of the land they occupied (including, though somewhat limited, parts of France, Czech, Poland, Austria, and Italy), military control of what they occupied to the east, and had only provisions to stop the fighting in the west, south, and north. These were written by Stauffenberg himself.
If you look at coups in many other countries through out history you will find many that had similar situations as Nazi Germany. Many had armies sworn to loyalty to the leader, but were still taken over by the military leaders. Czarist Russia is a prime example. The military was sworn to loyalty, many of the officers were part of the royal family. But those who wished to overthrow the government were still able to succeed. They enlisted the support of the officers that they could and the populace. While doing so they greatly hindered their war effort and in the end had to withdraw from the war, but they were able to enact the change in government they wanted. The German conspirators never went this route, though they could easily have (they were many of the military leaders). The only reason for it is the fact that they did not wish to see their country have to end the war effort and gave back lands gained (and probably change how their country was behaving). Instead they wanted a quick, easy, elimination of the current leadership so that they could easily take control of the country and continue what they had been supporting.
Stauffenberg and many of the conspiartors could have done much to help those who were being killed in the death camps. They could of stood up (as some other Germans had) and stated that the actions were wrong and the government should change. They could have put men in place who could have smuggled out or slowed down the killing. They could have limited the supplies (slow down shipments) used in the killing. There was much that they could have done overtly and covertly… they didnt. Even the Italians, after hearing of the fate of the people they were sending to the death camps began to slow, and at times stop, the deportation of people from their country.
Yes, they could have stood up and said what was happening was wrong. The Scholls et al did that with their White Rose pamphlets, that just got them guillotined. No doubt if they’d stood up and protested they’d have been executed too and others would have taken their places. Instead they chose to act.
Had they succeeded they’d have saved a hell of a lot more lives than they might have done by throwing away their lives protesting.
As for not closing the death camps or end the war, care to share some evidence for that?
Oh dear, you really aren’t paying attention.
The IAF has better technology, so the random bombing of WW2 simply isn’t justifiable anymore. Yet they still bomb civilian areas after giving Hamas plenty of time to clear out. That was clearly collective punishments, and they’re totally illegal under the Geneva Convention.
Hopefully the ICC probe will give clear proof of IDF war crimes, God knows, there’s enough evidence.
They made a film about Charles Coward years ago, it’s called The Password Is Courage, starred Dirk Bogarde as Coward.
Of course many other people tried to stop Hitler, but so what? Doesn’t change the fact Stauffenberg lost his life trying to kill him. You may not consider that heroic, but I, and millions of others, do.
:gah:
as a German I can say
*slaps*